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Reader Comments (86)

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 12:47PM (Unverified) said

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why not just make them cheap? what happened to microtransactions? make them $.50 to a dollar or something.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 12:48PM Bender said

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"I guess this is almost a win-win for Epic though. With this news being released they still benefit from the goodwill because no everyone now knows they wanted to do it for free, but the MS wouldn't let them... and they also benefit from the profits of the fee."

Is anyone else starting to think that all this confusion is all intentional for the very purpose quoted above?? It doesnt hurt MS because all the fanboys already have their opinions made up... and it does help Epic...

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 2:07PM (Unverified) said

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Anyone think about how big this is gonna be? Annex is free yes, but it's gotta be at least a couple hundred megs. and the Maps are gonna be at least a gig or two.... GoW if I remember correctly sold around six million units... lets say about 50% of those who bought it play on line and are interested in the maps. and half that want to download it in the first month. 25% of the entire user base = 1.5 million downloads of almost 3gig in the first month thats a lot of bandwidth to support on top of regular on line play of XBL enabled games, voice and video chat, and all that other jazz. I don't think $5 that I paid this month for xbl is gonna cover that.

I don't think we can criticize Microsoft for wanting to charge. A case can be made thats it's kinda messed up that they didn't believe in epic enough to try out their way of doing things... like, ever hear of Unreal Tournament, Microsoft? Still one of the most played PC games today. Epic knows how to make a game with a long tail.

And that fact that we should of had all this stuff months ago... this is way outside 90 day window of the second batch of DLC we're supposed to get. I don't like when internal squabbles prevent me from getting my game on in a timely fashion

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 1:12PM (Unverified) said

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So how are the 360 fanboyz going to spin this one? Let me guess: "But I WANT to pay Micro$oft more money!"

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 1:00PM (Unverified) said

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"What makes you think MS is in the hole on GoW??"

I said nothing about MS being in the hole. You don't have to be in the hole to want to continue to make money off an investment. And there isn't anything wrong with that. As I said they already gave up some free maps. Why does everybody expect shit for free all the time? MS wants live to be profitable, the need a business model for that. Making everything free interferes with the business model, so it is up to Epic and MS to hash something out that works for everybody. Sounds fair to me.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 1:00PM (Unverified) said

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Why not just make it like 25pts? If they can't make it free, make the cost inconsequential.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 1:03PM Rask said

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I love how everyone is saying how good and philantrophic Sony is yet they operate an auction house where Everquest 2 players can sell in-game assets and characters to each other and Sony takes a % off each sale that is made.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 1:22PM (Unverified) said

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"But I WANT to pay Micro$oft more money!"

Just read some of the comments and that's EXACTLY what some people are saying.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 1:30PM (Unverified) said

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@ 56 & 54:

It's not that people want to pay MS more money, it's just that some people live in the real world where people have pay for stuff sometimes....It isn't pretty, but that's life.

People pay for bottled water, but paying for GEOW maps? WTF?

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 1:36PM (Unverified) said

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@steve johnson
Noone wants to pay more, the way I see it, it's more of a discussion if the content is worth it's price.

Posted: Apr 10th 2007 3:33PM (Unverified) said

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The content was NEVER given away by Epic in the first place. It was SPONSORED by DISCOVERY and FUTURE WEAPONS. Don't expect any in-game content to come for free to end users unless it is sponsored...bad business.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 1:54PM (Unverified) said

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I hate Microsoft, a lot!
"Pay for this, give us money for that."
They charge too much money for too many things as it is.
It doesn't matter, I refuse to sink anymore money into my 360. See what you did Microsoft? I am waiting for the 360 to get hacked, then I will start caring about my 360 again... until then I am done with all this "nickel and dime" the consumer crap.

Posted: Apr 13th 2007 1:21PM (Unverified) said

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#46 -- do you have any facts to back up your assertion that free maps would significantly increase sales of the base game? And that it would increase sales enough to cover the not inconsequential costs of creating the maps, propping them to servers, the bandwidth costs, etc...? Last time I checked, no one knew how much it costs to run Live, let alone to produce content for it -- but I suspect we would all be very surprised at the outlay. What do you suppose the bandwidth costs are for a service that has 6M active users?

And as to those who want it for "25 cents or something like that" -- let's do some math -- if I can charge $10 for something and 100,000 people will buy it for a total of $1M, how many more people have to buy it at 25 cents to make it worthwhile -- hmm... lt's see that would be something like... 3.9 MILLION MORE PEOPLE. In other words, every single player of GOW in the world.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 2:27PM (Unverified) said

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Some of you morons really need to go back to school and learn what socialism is.
Fucking right wing dumb asses.

Anyhow, it sucks that MS is charging for content that's meant to be free...but it's MS's house and they're the ones who decide how the rules work.
If you don't like it, fire off an e-mail to Microsoft and don't buy the product in question. If enough of you do that, it's the most effective way to get MS's attention.

In a way, this reminds me of Nintendo's stance toward 3rd party game makers in the past. They took a real iron fist approach and it ultimately turned publishers off and made guys like Sony and Sega more attractive.
I think that if digital distribution really IS the future, having this nickel and dime approach that Microsoft has adopted it going to really blow up in their faces.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 2:30PM (Unverified) said

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"I love how everyone is saying how good and philantrophic Sony is yet they operate an auction house where Everquest 2 players can sell in-game assets and characters to each other and Sony takes a % off each sale that is made."

What does this have to do with anything?!? Fine, let's go over this aspect. In game items bought through Ebay or less than reputable sites are often scams. Using these services can often lead account jacking, items stealing, character stripping, and even having your character moved into a circle where all your hard work to become a lv60 alchemist suddenly becomes a farming asset. And when this happens, who do you run to? The people running the game that are more likely than not just to ban your ass for breaking TOS?

All companies know this behavior is going on. However, most companies reactions are mass bannings or simply turning the other cheek to the problem. And someone who is on the bad side of a scam will instantly hate the game and the companies inaction in your, the victim, favor.

Sony, meanwhile, saw this issue and asked their userbase if they would like to see a service such as this. I mean, EQ2 items are already being sold through Ebay without the ability for SOE to police it. They launched a program they expected to fail (seriously, read gamasutra... early interviews told them this was a bad idea) only to have it turn into a success and breath some new life into EQ2.

Now I ask you, what is better? Ebay and various other websites where the only way SOE can police it is mass bannings or their own service where the service is not only managable but if things go wrong, SOE is in a position to take control?

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 2:54PM (Unverified) said

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I think it's only fair that I bounce in with my official stance though before anyone thinks I'm biased.

Yes, this sucks. Developer wants to give it for free but Microsoft is forcing a pricetag on it. BUT MICROSOFT IS NOT THE ONLY COMPANY TO ACT ALL GREEDY AND SHIT!

Seriously, every company is asking for huge profits.

Sony just asks a ton of money upfront. Likewise, they make money from all those movie studios begging to drop films for the millions of PS3s out there. And while their online may be free, items in Home and even extra songs for Singstar, I can assure you, will not be. There's Sony scam, outside of finally unlocking the full res movie playback on PSP thanks to UMD finally taking the dirtnap.

Nintendo, meanwhile, is charging out the ass for cheap hardware and cheaper games. Evidence? Well, let's put it this way. Have you SEEN videos of Pokemon Diamond and Pearl? I'm willing to bet they spent more advertising and shipping the game than they did on actual development. Nintendo is keeping budgets down and prices up. And to see the true face of Nintengreed, just simply remember that a year and a half ago, greatest hits was finally introduced to the GBA lineup and a Nintendo published GBA launch game FINALLY got a $10 price drop. And they'll be charging for their web browser pretty soon.

And Microsoft? Two words, Lumines Live.

Seriously though. All companies are greedy, they just show it in different ways.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 2:55PM Crono141 said

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Maps gonna be a gig or two?

WTF, do you know anything about what data a "map" stores? A map is just geometry with labels for textures. If there are new textures, it will be a larger download, as graphics take up tons of space, but the map itself at most would clock in at 5 meg, maybe 10 if they are large. A new game type would probably clock in at anywhere between 20 and 100 meg, with maps.

And as a publisher, you don't want a game with a long tale. All those people still playing UT1 may or may not have bought UT2004, and those people who like to play that game may or may not buy UT3. Basically, people are too busy playing the games with a long tale and not buying new games. You can see it now with the WoW effect. WoW is the only pc game worth mentioning when it comes to sales and revenue. It has a long tale. This is great for blizzard because they charge a monthly fee. GoW has a long tale, but there is no monthly fee, so people are playing Gears instead of buying new games. This is bad for microsoft UNLESS microsoft finds a way to profit from the game after the initial point of sale.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 5:37PM (Unverified) said

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They're both right but I believe in Epic's business philosophy more.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 4:11PM KaneRobot said

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"Microsoft put a shit load of cash into Gears and it's reasonable for them to want to make some of that money back."

They already made their money back several times over. It's called "people buying the game."

More Microsoft nonsense. Once Sony gets its shit together, we'll see a drastic reduction in the MS rape. Having no serious competition right now means MS can do whatever they want, and no one can do a thing about it.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 4:17PM (Unverified) said

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Except the first 2 maps weren't "free" per say.

The Discovery channel paid/sponsored for them to be "free" to the gamer

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 4:22PM (Unverified) said

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So going to get flamed as a communist by idiots for saying this, but what the hell:

I have absolutely no objections to people having to pay money to Microsoft. You know why? Because Bill is giving most of his fortune away to people who don’t even have clean water supplies, or electricity, or any kind of healthcare whatsoever. Microsoft getting richer means Bill gets richer, meaning more money goes to these people.

Boo-hoo, you have to pay the equivalent of an over-priced, watered down coffee, with high-calorie, sugar-bloated muffin on the side, which could probably have paid for the daily wages of two of the workers that picked the beans for that lukewarm drink you’ll probably half-finish then throw away anyway.

I personally see it as poetic justice – after all, we all in the Western world got rich off of exploiting generations of other peoples across the globe, which we still do to this day in one form or another. It’s also why I put up with off-shore telephone centres – someone, somewhere, has a deep sense of irony and I LOVE it!

I’m not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I willingly give my money to Microsoft in the knowledge that eventually it will actually do one hell of a lot of good.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 4:35PM (Unverified) said

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Chuz, that is honestly the stupidest thing I've read in a LOOOONG while, and I read a lot.

I thought nobody would be stupid enough to think the Corporate Charity suggestion I posted on XBox360Fanboy.com would have any merit whatsoever, but there you have it. I was wrong. Live and learn, I guess.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 4:43PM (Unverified) said

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I too long for the days of PC games, where you got all your content for free and developers liked it when users made their own content (Team Fortress anybody?)
The only time you payed for new content was usually a major expansion. But so far the only thing that comes close is Oblivions "Knights of the Nine". Thats still somewhat skimpy but after the horse saddle debacle they had to save some face.

Has anyone of the consoles even thought about user created content? I know there have been rumors and "tools" released but their all vaporware as far as Ive seen.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 4:54PM (Unverified) said

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Wow! And there wasn't even an intervening post in the way!

Sorry that you're the sort of uncaring git that (sic) does not feel any kind of guilt, personal or collective, but hey, you enjoy your cheap prices and carry on turning a blind eye to everything that happens.

*waits for 'this isn't the place for this kind of discussion' comment*

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 5:01PM (Unverified) said

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If your conscience is bothered with guilt for your personal lifestyle, there are better ways to give money to the needy without going through Microsoft.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 5:08PM (Unverified) said

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Chuz likely fails to realize Bill Gates no longer controls Microsoft. His constant charities were a constant headache.

Oh wait, this is where I'm supposed to feel guilty about third world countries and recycle and swear off cheap meat or even meat itself forever. Damnit, I read this story before. The protagonists feels all responsible, joins peace core, travels the world, dies of aids, and teaches a lesson to the five people in the theatre to see this particular independant film. I may be a cold unfeeling bastard but I have enough issues living my life, fuck worrying about 6 billion other sacks of functionless flesh.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 5:17PM (Unverified) said

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"And as to those who want it for "25 cents or something like that" -- let's do some math -- if I can charge $10 for something and 100,000 people will buy it for a total of $1M, how many more people have to buy it at 25 cents to make it worthwhile -- hmm... lt's see that would be something like... 3.9 MILLION MORE PEOPLE. In other words, every single player of GOW in the world. "

Wow, what a jackass be you. Let's put it this way and apply your nonsense to another failed Arcade aspect. Lumines Live.

The base pack (Read:Shareware) ran $15. The mission and puzzle packs both ran $6 a piece. Another expansion pack of more skins ran another $6. Rarely was anyone taking them up on their offer. So during a "promotion," prices dropped dramatically on two of the packs and Microsoft even included a free download of Heavenly Star to Gold users. Suddenly, the additional packs not only saw a sales spike but so did the skin pack and yes, even the base game itself saw an increase in sales. So the morale of the story? Pricing your shit like a dick won't move units.

HOWEVER, charging insane amounts for additional content may only mean that you need to sell a smaller number of units to make money but this segregates the userbase dramatically and this philosophy not only avoids the iTunes phenominon, but iTunes don't even exist in this limited spectrum. MP3.com is obviously the route to go and all that apple jazz makes no sense because it would take 10 purchased songs to match the purchase of only four on MP3.com.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 5:27PM (Unverified) said

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I donate to multiple charities each and every year, but I sure as hell am not going to "donate" to Microsoft in the hopes that the money somehow filters up to the Supreme Chairman Bill Gates and then down the line to some organization that actually deserves my charity.

You have some serious misonceptions about charitable work, if you honestly think it's a good idea to buy more Microsoft products because Bill Gates suddenly grew a conscience.

What percentage of your "donation" to Microsoft ends up towards a charitable donation? You have no way of knowing, because the amount of Bill Gates' charitable donations is tied to Microsoft stock price, which moves based on many factors, only one of which is overall Microsoft revenue and net profits. In the short term it moves entirely based on investor confidence, which has, at times, very little to do with actual company performance.

Personally I prefer to give my money to organizations that use 100% of the donations in charitable work. Since I'm a gamer, one obvious choice is Child's Play.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 5:48PM (Unverified) said

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I donate money through normal methods too. Cool that you support Child's Play - really, good on ya'. But if you're going to criticise the MS-Gates route, then you at least have to be aware that all normal charities have similar problems, where so much of the money donated actually goes on admin and wages and the like.

But my point is that I, personally (as in MY opinion, my thoughts, the things that make me, me), LOVE the fact that Microsoft, almost uniquely, basically ONLY screws over first-world populations.

Whatever the revenue-versus-charitable-output figure is, the irony that Microsoft is seen by Americans, Europeans and Australasians as the most evil corporation in the world, because it has the audacity to get THEM to pay through the nose for stuff they don't need (that hardly ever works properly anyway) - well, that really is a fantastic feeling. For me.

Which, again, is why I am happy to pay for Microsoft stuff, irrespective of every other donation I make, which, let's face it, are often only there to make middle-class people feel good about themselves.

PS m- Sheppy - not a veggy. So, I didn't get called a communist, but I guess 'hippy joins peace core, dies of AIDs' is close enough.

Thanks for proving me right, Sheppy. *huggles*

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 5:52PM (Unverified) said

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Oh and Sheppy:

re: Gates not controlling MS anymore - I wrote about that *quicklychecksblogfordatesubmitted* way back in August last year. Did two spectacularly unfunny parodies on it.

But his personal fortune is still tied to Microsoft's, so....sorry.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 6:25PM (Unverified) said

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Kizzle, I think you answered your own question.

You bought the game. Everything you're owned came on the disc you bought. If they come out with an add-on or other dlc, you didn't pay for it when you bought the game. That's something they decided to do after you bought the game.

If they decide to make it free, great. But you don't get to bitch when they don't, because paying for the game isn't the same as fronting the cash to create additional content.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 6:29PM (Unverified) said

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"Noone wants to pay more, the way I see it, it's more of a discussion if the content is worth it's price"

LOL

"It's not that people want to pay MS more money, it's just that some people live in the real world where people have pay for stuff sometimes....It isn't pretty, but that's life."

What? so let me get this straight...Microsoft does this and you people somehow are fine with it but Sony did this, all you xbots label Sony as some greedy evil empire..

"but I think Blu-ray, cell processor, free online, virtual home (which for some xbots think it's an MMO, why I don't know) and other stuff, I think the value of the ps3 is worth it"

And all you Xbots scream "none of that stuff is worth it, 360 PWNNSSSSS !!!!1111!!111 , achievements unlock ownge millions, blah, blah, blah, Gears, and Halo, yadda, yadda, yadda)

But here for some odd reason all you xbots feel a need to try and defend Microsoft on this?

Spin away xbots

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 8:08PM (Unverified) said

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I have to say the developers should not be limited on giving away free content. But I do feel that MS does have a right to demand a little compensation for bandwidth used especially on popular content that is liable to bring the servers to its knees like some good GOW content. I know there is the argument that we pay for live so we shouldn't have to but I can pay for cable and not get free pay per view.

Now this may be a special case too though cause this is a Epic/Microsoft Game Studios game. So MS may have money tied to the development of the maps and should have some say in the sales and in the end its techically their game too. Not sure if Geometry Wars falls under the same thing or other licensing things since the Project Gothem Racing where it Debued is a Microsoft game studios game. When I worked retail back in the day I would have sure liked to give stuff away for free but it wasnt mine to give.

Anyone know off hand any other cases of this happing with other developers. I will say I dont totally like everything that has happened in regards to the direction live marketplace is taking but its still the best out there. I really hope we can see the Competion (Sony\Nintendo) help shape this online marketplace/community too.

Posted: Apr 9th 2007 9:12PM (Unverified) said

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Can anyone actually say that Epic is not going to see any of the money made from the sale of the maps?

Just because Epic is okay with giving away the maps doesn't mean they don't also stand to gain by selling them for money.

Also, creating the content costs money. Distributing the content costs money. We can moan about having to pay for something the creators were willing to donate to us, but we don't have a right to get mad until we're being asked to pay more than the content is worth.

Lastly, if you're going to moan about the price of something, at least do the same everywhere else it's due. A year and a half ago it was costing Apple about $98 to produce an iPod Nano they were selling for $199. That's a ridiculous 50% profit margin. Now look at every game out on the Wii and ask yourself, "you mean Gears of War is only $10 more than this?"

Posted: Apr 10th 2007 1:02AM gd86 said

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The only thing that is really going to matter with this is how many subscribers will decided not to buy the pack and simply play on the current maps. I suspect maybe at best five percent. People complain all the time about how its horrible that company X is doing evil deed Y but you still go and buy stuff there.

Posted: Apr 11th 2007 12:06PM shadymilkman said

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@ #83

thats nearly 100% profit not 50%

-----------------------------------------------------

i hear a lot of rationalization for MS charging its user base for maps, and frankly thats ok. however i dont want those same people to EVER mention the PS3s price as a detractor for NOT purchasing the system. the price is all up front no microtransactions for games youve already purchased. its things like this why i havent gotten a 360 or live yet (i dont want to pay for ads plain and simple if im giving you money ive paid for the right not to have an advert in my face). if youve purchased the game you have also purchased subsequent materials released for that game! who is going to purchase this stuff if you havent bought the game already, SIXTY DOLLARS and you want MORE, get the fuck outta here! they would sell more copies if they made it a bestseller and gave teh maps away for free. if you charge for those maps then less ppl will want to buy the game, and even less ppl will play the new maps.

and for everyone saying that paying for live is great, your not paying for much ... its just a wide area system link nothing more, the games are hosted by one of the 360s in that match, so even then MS is passing the "cost" of live right back to its user base, once again fucking them blind. you pay for some of the services and the development of them, but to actually "play online" thats just the broadband connection you pay for monthly.

not saying sony or nintendo is better, but damn at least i get a cool controller or a blue ray player.

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